An Apology to a Muslim Friend

Have written an apology (i.e. defence) of the Christian doctrine of the Trinity. Thought that some of you bloggers might find it intresting. So here it is.



With regard to your question about the knowability of God. You must be correct in your assertion that if God is without space and Time there is a 'ditch' which the human mind cannot cross. All then we can ever know is God's action in space and time, which is not God only the action of God.

The message of Jesus, namely Christianity, teaches that God can be
known. It this possible? What the Christian scriptures teach is that 'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word
was God.' (John 1 v 1). That is to say that Communication (dialogue)
is who God is. For dialogue and communication to be possible there
must be a distinction between the giver of and receiver of
information. There must be at least two 'free others' or as Christian
theology teaches at least two persons in the being of God.

At this point it is important to note that a Christian can in some
sense agree with the Islamic contention that God does not have a son.
For what the Christian is ultimately trying to say is that God IS
Father, Son and Spirit. God IS Tri-unity. Also it should be noted that
for a Christian to say that Jesus is the Son of God is not to say that
God had sexual intercourse with anyone let alone Mary. Rather the Son
has always been with the Father for God is Father, Son and Spirit.
Thus in the becoming human, the Son he does not become the Son for
he is, was, and always shall be the Son of God. We should not
ultimately let our human experience of father and son define our view
of God as Father and Son. Rather, we should let our view of God as
Father and Son define our view of human fathers and sons.

Returning now to the notion of 'free other' or person. This notion of
'free other' means that within God there must in a highly qualified
sense be 'space and time' within God. What the Great 20th Century
Christian theologian Karl Barth has called God-Space and God-Time.
This means that the Christian doctrine of the trinity is not an
obscure piece of theology. Rather, it is the life and soul of
Christianity. It is the belief that God in his nature has the capacity
for relationship. Dialogue is the essence of who God is, that is why
the Christian joyfully states that God is Love. For Love requires more
than one person and it means that communication is possible.

This is not to deny the existence of the impassable ditch between God
and Man. God is 'wholly other', God is not part of the Creation. Man
therefore cannot know God by any efforts of his own. The distance
between the Creator and the created is unbridgeable and infinite from
the perspective of Man. What the Christian contention is that
though from Man's side there is no way to know Who God is. There is
implicit within 'God-Space-time' the capacity for God to communicate to
Man. God can communicate with Man for communication far from being
alien to God is the essence of God. Though Man cannot step towards
God, God can step towards us.

Thus in the incarnation (becoming flesh) "The Word became flesh and
made His dwelling among us. We have seen His glory, the glory of the
Only begotten, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."
(John 1 v 18) Thus in the incarnation God reveals Who he is. God truly
communicates with man, in the language of man as man. This is possible
because relationship is the essence of God.

Further as you pointed out, in becoming man the Christian God dies. But he died as man, not so that he would cease to exist. Rather in taking our human death upon himself He gives to humanity His eternal life. This is the resurrection, God the Son has entered our death to bring us His own life. As one of my favourite theologians T. F Torrance states

"In Jesus God himself descends to the very bottom of our human existence where we are alienated and antagonistic, into the very hell of our godlessness and despair, laying fast hold of us and taking our cursed condition upon, himself, in order to embrace us for ever in his reconciling love.”

Your question of though if this was the case, how can God be knowable now for Jesus is not physically present. Though as the Christian doctrine teaches us The Son of God has not ceased to be Man. Nor will he ever cease to be man. Rather his assumption of humanity means that in him we have been borne to the throne room of God. This is the Christian belief that there is a unity of the whole of humanity due to its common ancestor - Adam. Christians believe that Christ assumed the place of Adam and so represents us all.

At this point it is important to bring to our mind the third and equally important person of the Divine Trinity, God the Holy Spirit. Christians believe that the relationship between the Father and the Son is mediated by the Holy Spirit. So in the same way (as Christ has taken our humanity) our relationship to God the Father and God the Son is mediated by the Holy Spirit. He is the Bond of Love. This is actualised by means of prayer, worship, scriptures, preaching and sacraments (Communion and Baptism) and many other ways. He makes what is real for Christ real to us and can do for you.

Unlimited Atonement

Yes!

Limited Atonement

NO!

Hey, Lou's Gospel Rocks

Check out Lou's latest theological musing.

http://www.silkwormyarns.blogspot.com/ **

Well if it is gospel I supposed the title should be Lou's Gospel is gospel but that just don't work.

**diclaimer: any comments on this site regarding me may be exagerated

The Ea statement of Faith

Chris (home.parm.net) has made the comment that he doesnt know wether he can sign the EA statement of Faith. So I thought I would share my thoughts on my blog about it!! :P

Any how here it is

The Evangelical Alliance Basis of Faith

Evangelical Christians accept the revelation of the triune God given in the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments and confess the historic faith of the Gospel therein set forth.

Great statement spot on

They here assert doctrines that they regard as crucial to the understanding of the faith, and which should issue in mutual love, practical Christian service and evangelistic concern.

Another Great statement , spot on

The sovereignty and grace of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit in creation, providence, revelation, redemption and final judgement

Spot on

The divine inspiration of the Holy Scripture and its consequent entire trustworthiness and supreme authority in all matters of faith and conduct.

A qualified yes, i.e the ultimate authority rest with Christ not the scriptures, but it is mediated through the scripures.

The universal sinfulness and guilt of fallen man, making him subject to God's wrath and condemnation.

spot on

The substitutionary sacrifice of the incarnate Son of God as the sole all sufficient ground of redemption from the guilt and power of sin and from its eternal consequences.

Yes, as long as we understand sacrifice to mean the whole of Christ's ministry not just his death on the Cross. Also it has a good point about removing the power of sins, this i would love to see explained by a penal substitution only model.

The justification of the sinner solely by the grace of God through faith in Christ crucified and risen from the dead.

Amen

The illuminating, regenerating, indwelling and sanctifying work of God the Holy Spirit.

Spot on

The priesthood of all believers, who form the universal Church, the Body of which Christ is the Head and which is committed by His command to the proclamation of the Gospel throughout the world

Spot on

The expectation of the personal, visible return of the Lord Jesus Christ in power and glory

Spot on


This then must make me an evangelical, cool. Lets go make some weak orange squash!

T. F Torrance quote of the week

Fundamentalists and so-called evangelicals take note:


"Fundamentalism stumbles at the consubstantial relation between the free continuous act of God's self-communication and the living content of what He communicates, especially when this is applied to divine revelation in and through the Holy Scriptures. It rejects the fact that revelation must be continually given and received in a living relation with God ­ i.e., it substitutes a static for a dynamic view of revelation. ...The practical and the epistemological effect of a fundamentalism of this kind is to give an infallible Bible and a set of rigid evangelical beliefs primacy over God's self-revelation which is mediated to us through the Bible. This effect is only reinforced by the regular fundamentalist identification of biblical statements about the truth with the truth itself to which they refer. ...The living reality of God's self-revelation through Jesus Christ and in the Spirit is in point of fact made secondary to the Scriptures." (Thomas F. Torrance, Reality and Evangelical Theology. Westminster Press. 1981. pgs 16,17,18).

Why are essays so hard to write

Dear all

Why are essays so hard to write. Even when someone suggested using a pen or a wordprocessor it has not helped!

Richard

A theology straight from hell

With my (though not exclusive on going discussion) and Sven’s discussion with Adrian. He has pulled out the big guns. Namely Hell.

He suggests that retributive justice is vindicated by the continued conscious torment of the unelect. The key problem with his theology is that he has failed to see God through Christ. To quote Barth there is no God hiding behind Jesus. Clearly Adrian denies the scriptural doctrine that Christ died for all and therefore that God loves all. It is at this point he must be wrong for Christ died once for all. This then is the declaration of God's universal love.

My plea is that any doctrine must be thought of with a christological centre.

My challenge to Adrian is to show from scripture that Christ did not die for all. If he can do this I will change my views!

Richard

Adrian's simple Gospel: the rights and wrongs

Adrian has been doing his simple gospel on www. adrian.warnock.info he asked me to point out where I disagree with 'his' simple gospel. Thought others might like to see it too.



The Message

1. God made everything that exists out of nothing and made mankind as the pinnacle of his creation designed for a relationship with him. This desire for a relationship is hardwired into us, and one of the evidences for this is our stubborn insistence in clinging onto notions like morality, love, individual choice, nobility and the reality of the conscious self in the face of people telling us we are nothing but a machine.

Yes


2. Everyone has Sinned. Following in the footsteps of our first parents from whom we have inherited a self-destructive urge- we all are biased towards sin. Without the constraints of culture we would all be capable of committing the worst of sins.

yes


3. Despite our hatred for God, God still loves us. God does hate sin and has determined that sin must be punished, or else he could not be considered just.

No, such an abstract idea. Why does God punish sin. Because he wants to get rid of it. Not because pain x balances sin x. God’s justice is about the restoration of relationships not abstract punishment.

4. God loves us so much that he gave his only son to die in our place. Jesus took the punishment instead of us on the cross so that we could receive a pardon for our sins.

God loves us so much he sent his son, amen and amen.

Because I believe Gods justice is restorative I cannot believe the instead of, we were punished in Maybe.


The Response

I don’t really like the division between the message and Response. Being a only Christ person I see the response in Christ. Such that the response is Christ and that is what we partake of. The response in Christ is Atonement.


5. God convicts us of our sins and leads us to confess our helplessness in the face of sin and our need for him.

This can only happen because we are partaking of Christ’s confession of the same.

6. We then turn from sin and towards God in trust in him and in the work of Jesus on the cross which took our punishment. A glorious transaction proceeds where Christ receives our sin and we his righteousness. We turn from going our own way and decide instead to follow him. Our whole being now reaches out in trust towards Christ as much as it used to hide from him in fear and hatred.

Don’t like this transaction language seems all a bit of a legal fiction. The atonement must change the person. I.e. were we saved on the cross or at our ‘moment of decision’?

Too Mechanical and legal, not personal. Above our heads does not change us. You have used pelagian language ‘we turn’. What is the relationship between our towardness to Christ and Christ’s atoning work. Surely our turning must be in the atonement not just the effect of it.

7. As an outward testimony to the inward reality of what has happened to us in secret we outwardly declare to others our determination to follow Christ by being baptized. Baptism is our seal on the agreement that has occurred between us and God.

Sorry going to have to be Presbyterian here and say it is God’s seal. Baptism happens to us we do not choose to be baptised, ultimately. That is why I believe in Peado Baptism.

8. As an outward testimony to the reality of what has happened, God pours out his Holy Spirit on believers that seek him for such a blessing. Receiving the Holy Spirit is a conscious, real experience that is usually accompanied by gifts of the Spirit such as tongues and/or prophecy. At its core, however is an experience of the love of God poured out into our hearts. This is God's seal on the agreement that has occurred between us and God and a deposit that guarantees our inheritance.

Yes


9. The church, on seeing that this has all occurred welcomes the new believer into membership of the family of God. They commit to care for the new believer and in turn the believer covenants to serve God and his local church. The church is Gods body on earth and exists to demonstrate his attributes to the world together. There is no plan b, the church is Gods answer for a fallen world.

Sort of.


10. On earth believers live in a constant state of tension, living in the good of the age to come, but at the same time groaning for that final day when their salvation will be complete. Christians work to speed the return of Christ by building his kingdom, and should anticipate both great blessing and great hardship as the end draws near. We live ultimately not for this earth but for the world to come.

The world to come is this earth transformed, therefore false dichotomy.

P T Forsyth Quotes on the atonement

For my pal Adrian and for the viewing pleasure of all my other blog readers I place these quotes. Taken from

P. T. Foryth's : The Work of Christ.
(with much to my frustration John Stott loves to quote from in The Cross of Christ but never deals with his main theme!!!)

http://www.ccel.org/f/forsyth/work/work01.htm

I find it convenient, you observe, to distinguish between punishment and penalty. A man who loses his life in the fire-damp, where he is looking for the victims of an accident, pays the penalty of sacrifice, but he does not receive its punishment. And I think it useful to speak of Christ as taking the penalty of sin, while I refuse to speak of His taking its punishment. I would avoid every word that would suggest that He was punished in connection with His salvation. It robs the whole act of ethical value to say so. Penalty is made to honor God in the Cross of Christ, and thus it becomes a blessing to us. Not that our punishment is turned to good account in its subjective results upon us, but that Christ’s judgment has objective value to the honor of God’s holiness. He turned the penalty He endured into sacrifice He offered. And the sacrifice He offered was the judgment He accepted. His passive suffering became active obedience, and obedience to a holy doom. He did not steel His face to the suffering He had to endure, as though it were a fate to which He had to set His teeth and go through it in a stoic way. He never regarded it as a mere infliction. For Him, whoever inflicted it, it was the holiest thing in all the world - it was the will and judgment of God. All the Old Testament told Him that the Kingdom of God could never come without the prior judgment of God; and He was prepared to force that judgment in His impatience for the Kingdom. * He answered the judgment of God with a grand affirmative act. The willing acceptance of final judgment was for Jesus the means presented by God for effecting human reconciliation and the Divine Kingdom. The essence of all sacrifice, which is self-surrender to God, was lifted out of the Old Testament garb of symbolism, and was made a moral reality in Christ’s holy obedience. In the Old Testament we have the lamb and the various other things brought for offering; but where did their essential value lie? In the obedience of the offerer; in the fact that those institutions were given and prescribed by holy God, however their details were due to man. And the presentation of the victim was valuable, not because of anything in the victim, but because of the obedience and surrender of the will with which the offerer presented it. This is the bearing of sin - the holy bearing of its judgment. This is the taking of sin away - the acknowledgment of judgment as holy, wise, and good, and its conversion into blessing; the absorption and conversion of judgment into confession and praise, the removal of that guilt which stood between God and man’s reconciliation - the robbing sin of its power to prevent communion with God.

Amen and Amen

why simple Gospel

Adrian Warnock chalanged me and others to explain the gospel simply. What I would like to point out is that where i disagree with penal substitution(as concived by majority of evangleicals) is at this point.

Jesus does not make propitiation, He is Propitiation.

Hope this Clears everything up

A simple Gospel-The Love of God

In the begining, God made humankind. In this God declared his love for us, causing us to be. However, they rejected that love of God. This is not just the case of an individual for when we look at our lives we can clearly see that we have not lived in the light and towards the love of God. In this rejection we place ourselves inline with enemies of God and so enslaved to them. We had become enslaved to Death.

The holy love of God was not content with this being the case. So in the most loving perfect Father sent his Son to our far away country. For God in his love was determined to not let you or I go. Rather he came into the enemy camp, put in his lot with us slaves. Though not just as one of us but in a mysterious way he took US -you and I to his heart. What he did was this he became obedient to God, even to the very judgment of God against you and I. For the great enemy we had become enslaved to was the Death (the very hell of existence outside of God) this is the judgement of God on sin. In enacting the judgement upon humanity in himself he vindicated the justice of God. That perfect Amen to God.

But becoming obedient to God's judgement he had offered God what he required. He had walked back to God. He had fought all the enemies of God. He had been victorious. Humanity has forever been joined with the life. Being joined with Life his obident but lifeless body was reanimated. But now with a rich and indistructable life-even God life. This was his great Victory.

In light of this I urge you be reconciled with God. For God has brought you to himself will you not recieve his embrace? will you not participate in his Amen. Will you not recieve the true life.

Universalism and the Judgement Seat of Christ

sorry that i have not blogged a while. But this is the fruit so far of the discussion I had with my father regarding universalism. Hopefuly i will be able to post on Arius soon.


Hell is one of the most problematic doctrines for any christian. How can God who is all loving send people to hell. Moreover, if christ died for all are all not saved? The logic presses in hard, if atonment is something is achived then have all been reconciled. If again, Christ represents the whole of Humanity can all not be saved.

The moment one posits, universalism a couple of rather problimatic consequences happen. Firstly, this life becomes a sham our choices do not appear to have any meaning. Once the 'scandal of the particular' is despensed with, what is the point of our particularity. Certianly this can be acused of being man-centered. But did not God create us to be persons, free-others?

If one was to say that God determined everything, like some calvinists then our descision become a meaningless sham. But on the other hand we are sinful and therefore freedom of the will canot exist outside of Christ. But it is at this point, namely, outside of Christ that our ear ought to pick up. If all are in Christ there desisicion is made in the freedom of the only begotten.

This, however, asks more questions than it answers. What torrance said was that when we assert universalism we lose the urgency of the Gospel. The is, to my mind, the reality and meaningfulness of human descision. If not after death at least before death. We have a charge to call people to be reconciled with God. But again, unless we are careful we lose our christological centre. But if we are to assert that God has been fully revealed in the Incarnation what else is there to see. Is not the cross the final judgement on humanity?

It is here we must assert the 'the second coming', this is the reminder that while God has been revealed in Christ. He will only be fully revealed at the 'second coming' and that man himself will only be fully revealed at the 'final judgement'. Particularly with the fate of the impenitent and unevangelised we must be careful to say that only before the judgement seat of Christ will we see him as he is. And human beings will see what and who they are.

Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?

More doggy games

Hurt doggies here

http://www.toshiba.co.jp/digital/game/

Scripture the faithful witness to Jesus Christ

Reading Introduction to Dogmatics, thought this might be a good statement on belief regarding scripture. Obviously following Barth

In calling Holy Scripture the Word of God (and we so call it, because it is so), we mean by it Holy Scripture as the witness of the prophets and apostles to this one Word of God, to Jesus, the man out of Isreal, who is God's Christ, Our Lord and King in eternity. And in confessing this, in venturing to call the Church's proclamation God's Word, we must be understood to mean the proclamation of Jesus Christ, of Him who is true God and true Man for our good.

Introduction to Dogmatics, Karl Barth (scm press:1949) page 17

I believe

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, light from light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
and became truly human.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father,
who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come.

Amen.

Japanesse Game

Play Japanese Game

Have fun

Hurt dog

http://www.toshiba.co.jp/digital/game/tobby_pachi/paci.swf

ps-for some reason, readers of this blog will be suprised, one of my lecturers suggested i was dislexic-hope that is the right spelling :)

I had it suggested several times at school, but I did do a test during my a-levels and it came out negative. I think they said that my spelling and gramma is just crap. Obviously in much more polite terms. Though a friend who is dislexic said that that she got found negative the first time.

Which i suppose begs the question, what is dislexia and is it sin Pat? (a note for worldofsven.blogspot.com)

Can i just be relatively inteligent but rubbish at english, what is going to happen. Find out next week on Destruction of Gog.

Richard

A reply to Dr. Warnock

Dear Adrian,

Firstly Adrian I have at least in this article attempted however briefly to look at YOUR supposed key passages.

http://destructionofgog.blogspot.com/2005/01/brief-note-on-issiah-53-romans.html

Adrian I am begining to wonder wether you are actualy reading any of my posts (and emails) or svens posts. You seem to be only intrested in proof texting. Note the devil can quote scripture i.e the text has infinite hermenutical potential.


My fundemental point to you is:

ADRIAN YOU ARE NOT TAKING SIN SEROUSLY ENOUGH.

GOD IS REAL MAD AT SIN, GOD HATES SIN, GOD IS THE ENEMY OF SIN. UNLIKE SOME FORMS OF CALVINISM WERE GOD ULTIMATELY WILLS SIN. GOD HATES SIN , AND IF HE DOESNT HE IS NOT WORTH WORSHIPING.

SIN IS NOT JUST A LEGAL PROBLEM as C. S. Lewis puts it we are enemies of God. Even if Christ were to 'take our punishment' we would still be against God. God doesnt want to just save you from Hell. He wants to renew you according to the image of the Son.

SIN IS REALLY BAD AND GOD HATES IT.

THE AT-ONE-MENT REALLY IS AT ONE MENT. It is a cheap, legal fiction, gospel that just says Jesus takes the punishment so I'M ok. You sound in this post like the person that things there should be a speed limit but not for me. Jesus is about so much MORE as Romans 6 tells us Christ death was TO sin. Christ died to sin as our substitute and representative. He took our fallen humanity (romans 8 3) our alieneted mind. He changed us, We are in him like we were in Adam. He then through his Death has DIED TO SIN. Yes so we can avoid hell. Not however with the carefull rearangement of the moral books so we are on the good side of the ledger. But because we cease to be damable.

GOD IS TO BIG, TO TO A QUASI MATHEMATICAL SUM. God want to be in relationship with man. CHRIST THREFORE TRULY CHANGES MAN HE HAS DIED TO THE FLESH AND LIVED TO GOD. He has resisted sin to death. (Hebrews 13)

You ask me what gospel?

WHAT GOSPEL, ALL GOSPEL. CHRIST HAS CHANGED MAN FOREVER. HE IS NOT JUST OUR JUSTIFICATION HE IS OUR SANCTICATION we have been sanctified(past tense romans 8) because we are in christ.

He has delt with the Wrath of God because as luther said the Wrath of God is his strange work. He has made the wrath of God (which was the love of God expressed against sin) obselete because he is the last Adam he is God's last word on humanity.

Man is forever seen In Christ.

Amen and Amen