The suffering of God, truth of Fiction.
No I am not going to give any answers on this question. But only to try and see what others think. Before Barth it would be usual and normal to talk of the impassibility of God. God was outside the created order therefore evil and suffering could not affect him. But then again neither our goodness and truth.
Certianly God was held to suffered humanly in the incarnation but not in his divine nature. This has been held to be impossible by theologians such as Moltmann as it would require a split in God. God being passible and suffering certianly locates him near us when we suffer but the problem becomes if God suffers is he saving himself on the cross from suffering?
God then is in the mess of sin as much as us, he very victim. He must act to save mankind to save himsef. If then creation can affect God in this way, what hope of salvation is there?
Answers on this blog.....
Certianly God was held to suffered humanly in the incarnation but not in his divine nature. This has been held to be impossible by theologians such as Moltmann as it would require a split in God. God being passible and suffering certianly locates him near us when we suffer but the problem becomes if God suffers is he saving himself on the cross from suffering?
God then is in the mess of sin as much as us, he very victim. He must act to save mankind to save himsef. If then creation can affect God in this way, what hope of salvation is there?
Answers on this blog.....
posted by xopher_mc | 6:19 pm
5 Comments:
Its a complex question, which makes me a bit nervous to answer, but here's my initial thoughts:
If being grieved counts as legitimate suffering then both OT and NT bear witness to God being able to "suffer". But that's not necessarily the same as saying he can be harmed or in some way limited.
I think that talking about God "saving himself" is unhelpful. He always had the resources to bring an end to sin. He actually gets pleasure from judging sin, even if we find this a little uncomfortable to contemplate. The mystery is why did he ever allow sin to last more than a moment, and why should he be willing to suffer so much to save us?
I think the answer is found in both his love for us and his desire for his own glory (Piper is definitely on to something)
It is really tough question.
With regard to Piper (and clearly Johnathan Edwards his great example). I worry that the damnation of the sinner and the salvation of the sinner is an equaly good outcome for God. This worries me, lots.
What do you think, is that inline with scripture?
Piper is onto Jonathan Edwards alright.
Double predestination of damnation and salvation as both glorifying to God has more to do with greek aesthetics than Christian ideas about salvation. I'll post on that sometie soon.
I don't think it is necessarily an "equally" good outcome for God - after all if salvation and damnation were equally good, then the option that didn't require the cross at all would surely have been chosen.
As for judgement being in some sense a good outcome though, its not beyond comprehension. Most people get a sense of satisfaction when they see a murderer caught and sentenced.
On the subject of "double" predestination, I'm not exactly sure what people are getting at when they say they don't believe in this but they do believe in predestination. Its as though they think that God somehow doesn't realise that not electing someone for salvation is bad news for them.
It is an unhelpful term though. Judgement is the default option for sinners - it doesn't require God's specific determination to fulfil his role as "judge of all the earth" for an individual in particular. However, for mercy to triumph over judgement requires the judge to make a specific choice on behalf of the "object of mercy".
I agree for grace to be grace there must be a deliberate choice by God. However I take the Barth's view (and scripture Eph 1 4) that God Choice was/is Christ. And being in Christ we are Chosen. Thus our salvation is wholly of Grace for we cannot choose God, but God in Choosing Christ, the last adam and representative of all humanity, chooses me. Election is something that happens when the Gospel is preached.
The trouble with 'double' predestination too is that you cannot aviod limited atonement. As God does not love everybody. This seems to be against scripture to me as God desires everyone to be saved. Why everyone is not is a mystery, perhaps due to the irrationality of evil but certianly not down to God. I just dont buy the calvinist idea of Two wills it just means that there is a hidden God behind Jesus.
Post a Comment
Subscribe to Post Comments [Atom]
<< Home